You and your commenters are a feast of thinking — great stuff.
-C.L. Dyck
I have no need to engage with racists, so will ignore cl’s further diatribes.
-faithlessgod,
CommonSenseAtheism
cl resists following through on a thought even to provide a solid opposing position, and thus stifles many conversations. It’s a shame since it seems like cl has some brain power that could be applied to the topics at hand.
-Hermes,
CommonSenseAtheism
[faithlessgod and Hermes] fit
my definition of trolling. I didn’t take any of those attacks against you seriously, and quickly categorized them as trolls.
-JS Allen,
CommonSenseAtheism
[cl] is, as many have noticed, a master of this warfare.
-Eneasz,
CommonSenseAtheism
This seems to imply that cl is, at least in part, disingenuous in terms of how he responds/what he claims. Is this most likely true, supported by evidence, or merely a subjective claim?
-al friedlander,
CommonSenseAtheism
...I wanted to get a message to you outside of the context of specific discussions on CSA. You make good, insightful contributions to that site, and since I often agree with you I'm glad there is someone else there defending my positions better than I sometimes can. However I don't think anything of value would be lost if you stopped engaging in personal combat with juvenile snipers.
-Zeb,
CommonSenseAtheism
Thank you for your wonderful response - so reasoned in the race of [Waldvogel's] blustering.
-Annie Laurie Gaylor
FFRF
Thanks for a great Op-Ed.
-Marianne Ratcliff
Ventura County Star
...as atheists we need to make sure that someone like cl and any Christian readers of [An Apostate's Chapel] don’t come away with the perception that the atheists caved in or were incapable of responding. I’m sure that a lot of Christians who find cl incomprehensible at times and don’t even bother reading him themselves will come away with an assumption that cl is that sort of rare intellectual theist who can prove that gods exist. And that’s how those inane rumors about the feared xian intellectuals start…
-bbk
An Apostate's Chapel
You are in so over your head here, you are embarrassing yourself...
I am well versed in many aspects of evolution biology, through my academic background, and my professional life. Unless your academic degrees and background match mine, cease and desist. Return to philosophy and rhetoric, or whatever it is you perceive your strengths to be. They are definitely not science, even at the high school level.
-R.C. Moore
Evangelical Realism
You're doing a fine job.
-Prof. Larry Moran
Dept. of Biochemistry
University of Toronto
re: R.C. Moore & others
Phyletic change and vicariance (or, drift and selection versus population isolation), as cl points out, are much better ways of describing what are unfortunately more commonly known as micro- and macro- evolution, respectively.
-Dan
Biology postdoc
Univ. of Cyprus
re: R.C. Moore & others
cl says, “The minute you call yourself a
Christian or an
Atheist or whatever the heck else, you automatically get painted by other people’s interpretations of those words, which are almost always different and almost always distorted.” cl’s point couldn’t be more on. As cl points out there is an important reason for not claiming any real religious (or lack thereof) belief. It puts logical constraints on one's arguments due directly to the bias of the individual that is translating the English to mind ideas of what it means to be religious.
-Bobaloo
cl, I have to say, while I fundamentally disagree with you, you are an individual which I highly respect. I think your responses are always well thought out and your insights always well thought out and pertinently derived.
[Y]ou have made me a stronger atheist in my regards to critical thinking and debating. I really can’t wait to hear more from you. Hell, I’d even buy you a drink, good sir. Cheers!
-Parker
Evangelical Realism
Bottom line? Sometimes I think he's right about certain arguments, and I don't have a problem admitting that. Other times, however, I think he's wrong, and I've called him on that. But I have found he can be pretty reasonable if you (1) don't overstate your case, (2) make concessions when you have, and (3) insist he do the same.
-Lifeguard
I like it when [cl] makes me stop, think and question if I am making unfounded assertions or if I am being sloppy. What has been annoying me about cl of late is that he is being excruciatingly anal...
-seantheblogonaut
I really can't thank you enough for catching me on my error in rhetoric.
I always love a good debate! And I always enjoy your posts, as well! Keep up the great writing and the excellent eye
for detail!
-BZ
GLST 15
City College
of San Francisco
You make me smarter...
-Mike G.
..thank you, cl. I discovered your blog on a random web search and saw it as an oasis amidst a vast desert of seemingly intractable theist-atheist debate.
-Sung Jun
It's good to be able to discuss with people who are open and respectful, and know that disagreement does not mean disrespect... You are to be congratulated, not only for your patience, but also your ability to hold an ever-growing debate together with an impressive degree of structure.
-Ritchie
My tone is derogatory... [cl is] ignorant and credulous and deserves to be mocked... In the time he's been here, he's shown a consistent pattern of antagonizing everyone he comes in contact with, monopolizing threads, derailing discussions with perpetual complaints, quibbles and demands for attention, and generally making arguments that display a lack of good faith and responsiveness... it's become intolerable. I'm not banning him, but I'm putting in place some restrictions on how often he can comment.
-Ebonmuse
Daylight Atheism
This is no defense of the annoying cl, but what a self-righteous, prissy atheist you turned out to be, Ebonmuse. I'm disappointed in you, stealing a strategem from the theists.
-The Exterminator
to Ebonmuse
I certainly didn't get any bad impression about cl, and I can't relate his comments with any of the things (Ebonmuse) said above. I actually thought it was quite interesting to have him around.
-Juan Felipe
Daylight Atheism
Please continue to allow
cl to post his views and make it clear that he is still welcome. And let me be clear, cl is not a lunatic.
-Curtis
Daylight Atheism
With one exception, you are the most coherent and intelligent theist I've seen on this site...
-Steve Bowen
Daylight Atheism
I'm rooting for cl. I hope he perpetually manages to skirt the rules enough to do his damage, forcing rule revision after rule revision,
ad nauseum. Awesome! Let's watch as Ebon, ever more frustrated, continues to struggle to figure out how to keep his precious private blog neat and tidy as cl keeps messing up his papers while one by one, readers leave due to an every increasing administrative presence. Outstanding! Well I won't go. The thought of this sounds like the most entertaining thing that probably would have ever happened on Daylight Atheism. Hot damn!
-PhillyChief
Your visit has been something of a reality check to me. It seems that when you present rational arguments and criticisms, many commenters feel territory slipping and then work up vaporous or leaky responses. I also want to remark that your presence here has considerably moved me to try being a more careful and understanding debater...
-Brad
Daylight Atheism
I am not going to waste any more time parsing your comments to decide if they've crossed the line or not... So I banned you.
-Greta Christina
Be rude... cl invites rudeness. Would you want an incontinent little puppy coming into your house?
-(((Billy))) the Atheist
Note to all my regular readers: Since An Apostate’s Chapel is a free-speech zone, I don’t censor conversations.
As it appears that cl is a troll, please note that I will not be responding to him any longer. I ask that you refrain from doing so, as well. Please don’t feed the troll!
-The Chaplain
…I can’t reconcile being a "freethinker" with banning speech. [cl's] comments are not offensive in the normal understanding of that term, and he poses absolutely no threat except perhaps to some imagined decorum. Why can’t atheists lighten up, for no-Christ’s sake?
-The Exterminator
Is it going to distract from my meal when crazy uncle cl starts blathering out nonsense, pick his ears with a carrot or start taking his pants off? No. In fact, it might actually heighten the experience in some amusing way. So no, I don't see cl's work as damage.
-PhillyChief
I am beginning to suspect that you are a troll cl. Albeit an evolved troll, but a troll nonetheless. Perhaps we should all stop feeding the troll?
-GaySolomon
Evangelical Realism
[cl is] is either a sophist or an incompetent when it comes to the english language... (sic)
-ThatOtherGuy
Evangelical Realism
I’d say cl is pretty sharp... it may be tempting at times to think that “the other guy” is arguing out of some personal character flaw rather than a sincere desire to acknowledge the truth, I still think it’s better to debate respectfully... It is disrespectful to make unsupported accusations against people, e.g. by suggesting that their views are caused by an intrinsically corrupt and immoral nature.
-Deacon Duncan, 3-9-09
Evangelical Realism
[cl] cannot refute my facts, so he needs must find (sic) some scapegoat in order to claim that he has confronted the enemy and proven them wrong... cl, sadly, has proven himself to be the sort of guest who comes into your living room and sneaks behind your couch to take a crap on the floor, just so he can tell all your neighbors how bad your house smells and what an unsanitary housekeeper you are... an interesting case study in the negative effects a Christian worldview has on a reasonably intellectual mind.
-Deacon Duncan, 6-17-09
Evangelical Realism
I strongly discourage discussion of the character, abilities, motives, or personal ancestry of individual commenters, as tempting as such comments may be at times. I discourage the posting of comments that make frequent use of the pronoun “you,” as in “you always…” or “you never…” or “you are just so…”, when directed at a specific individual.
-Deacon Duncan, 4-9-09
Evangelical Realism
I won’t be publishing your most recent comment because it’s a return to the same sort of schtick you’ve pulled here before: re-writing other people’s arguments to make yourself look misunderstood and/or unfairly accused, taking “polyvalent” positions so that when people address your points you can claim to have said something else, distorting other people’s arguments, trolling for negative reactions, and so on.
-Deacon Duncan, 10-8-09
Evangelical Realism
[E]gomaniacal troll.
You win... You’re a disingenuous sophist through and through, cl. And a friggin’ narcissist to boot! Since I’ve thoroughly and purposefully broken the Deacon’s rules of engagement, I shall consider my right to post henceforth annulled, and move on -
dramatic pause, lights out.
-jim
Evangelical Realism
He either thinks in a very weird way or he's quite the con artist.
-mikespeir
I will gladly admit that I have a boner for cl. Maybe some day I’ll even earn a place of honor on cl’s Blog of Infamy.
-Eneasz
Evangelical Realism
Long time reader first time poster... I like reading what you
have to say over at Daylight Atheism so I figured I'd pop in here.
-Pine
He's just a jerk
that likes to argue.
-KShep
Daylight Atheism
You’re not a reasonable thinker in my book. You’re simply an arguer, for better or worse. I’m Michael Palin, you’re John Cleese. You’re just a disputation-ist, bringing everything into question...
-jim
Reason vs. Apologetics
Motherfucker, this is an interesting blog... Quite the group of commenters.
-John Evo
You are very articulate, and I can only assume that it's a result of high intelligence; an intelligence that's interested in, and can understand, healthy debate. However, at every turn, that's not what I or others seem to get.
-ex machina
Daylight Atheism
You are a troll, a liar, and a useless sack of shit. Not only that, but you're still wrong even after moving the goal posts and trying to re-write history. So, you can stop cyber stalking me now and trying to provoke me. I know what you are doing, and you are doing it so that you can whine about how I'm being irrational and mean to you and stroke your pathetic martyr complex. You're a pathetic attention whore and I've already given you too much attention. So, back the fuck off, stop following me around the
intarwebs and trying to provoke me, and fuck off.
-OMGF
Daylight Atheism
I would just like to say that, OMGF, having read the debate as a neutral observer, some of the things cl says about your style of argument are true, IMO. It is quite hasty, which means you occasionally haven't got the central point cl is trying to make...
-John D.
Daylight Atheism
...this is a difficult question that deserves more than a kneejerk reaction, not to imply that you're kneejerking. You're the least kneejerking person I've met.
-Quixote
If you’re here playing devil’s advocate, then, hey, you do a great job at it, it’s a service, keep us sharp... You’re a smart guy, but those are exactly the ones who give the worst headaches!
-Lifeguard
An Apostate's Chapel
You are a waste of time, cl. A big fat black hole of bullshit sucking in everyone who comes into contact with you.
-Spanish Inquisitor
As for all that harsh invective that's come your way, umm... I gotta say, I've seen some of the invective, but I haven't seen the behavior on your part that called for it. Maybe I've just not seen enough? I don't know... from what I've read, I can tell that you're a smart person, and whether you deserved any of that treatment or not is quite frankly immaterial to me; I just want to deal with the smart person at the eye of that storm.
-D
She Who Chatters
I now think that you’re an atheist, just having fun at other atheists’ expense. If that’s the case, kudos.
-The Exterminator
I agree that ought refers to a known or presumed desire in the person being advised. I believe the kind of moral ought you are talking about refers to some presumed deep desire. It amounts to "if you had true beliefs about what your deepest desires are and how to fulfill them, you would/not do X". That deepest desire might ne getting into heaven/avoiding hell, escaping the cycle of rebirth, communion with or likeness of God, harmony with all creatures, etc. People making those types of claims often refer to intrinsic value, but I think what they really have in mind is a presumed universal intrinsic desire in modal agents. So the is statement would be "You have desire X, and to fulfill that desire you must/not Y." (The inability of desirism to make such statements is one of its weaknesses.)
Posted by: Zeb | June 19, 2010 at 20:54
Given the inherent subjectivity of 'ought', I think simply making the statement is enough to make it true. Of course, you can argue with this by changing the scenery to include circumstantial criteria. But in the abstract, saying you "ought not X" is true by virtue of the fact that it is spoken. I put in on par with "I like X" or "I don't like X".
Now, as far as which 'oughts' and 'ought not's rise to the level of being recognized as moral statements is strictly a function of their consequential effects on a culture over a period of time and how desirable or undesirable said consequences are generally found to be. It's accurate to say moral statements a less than unanimous, but sufficiently close enough, status quo. What makes them actually true is merely the belief that it is so by at least one person.
When people argue over morality (what all it is that one ought not to do), the argument is analogous to a disagreement over taste in clothes or music. The fact that morality exists at all is due to convergence of opinion, nothing more.
Posted by: Dominic Saltarelli | June 19, 2010 at 22:57
Well, since I spent a thread puzzling out Desirism, I'm going to give my best Desirist interpretation here. :)
'In your opinion, what would make "you ought not steal your neighbor's goat" true?'
0. I desire to steal my neighbor's goat.
1. I'm going to enumerate all desires, that are relevant to this desire, including the desires of others. Why am I including the desires of others? Alonzo Fyfe says so. Then I'm going to somehow calculate the sum of these desires. Since I have no methods or formalism to do this, I think I just call Alonzo Fyfe(I'm going to assume, that Fyfe says that you ought not steal the goat, but I'm not sure).
2. Imaginary Fyfe has told me, that stealing my neighbors goat is a bad desire. That translates "it thwarts more desires than it fullfills" for people who are not Desirist. This means I'm not going to steal it. Why am I not going to steal it? Well, it's a bad desire according to Desirism and you should not act on those desires, because Alonzo Fyfe says so.
So, in conclusion, "you ought not steal your neighbors goat" is true, because Alonzo Fyfe says so.
http://atheistethicist.blogspot.com/2006/10/strangeness-of-ought.html shows, how Fyfe crosses the is-ought cap by simply stepping across. That means, that the First Principle of Derisism is "Alonzo Fyfe says so". :)
Posted by: tmp | June 20, 2010 at 15:27
You say that "ought not" only prevents one from fulfilling a desire, but I think it can also satisfy a desire. I could desire to maintain a good friendship with my neighbor, so I ought not steal his goat. I could desire that people in my neighborhood not get the idea that stealing is acceptable behavior, because I don't want my own stuff stolen -- so I ought not start the stealing trend by stealing my neighbor's goat.
I think it's fair to say that all people have a variety of desires, some of which are mutually exclusive (I desire a vacation, and I desire that my research get done, for example) but we also have some sort of priority ranking of those desires that help us weigh them against each other.
Posted by: NFQ | June 22, 2010 at 11:29
I would say such a statement describes the existence of a literal or implied social contract and is true to the extent that you accept that contract.
Literal social contract could be the laws of the land.
Implied social contract could be the rules you've been taught growing up about interacting with family, friends, and people in general.
We all know we have to give up some individual freedoms and rights to benefit others, but we also know that that benefit comes back to us either directly or in the form of sharing in other's happiness. For the vast majority, that we desire to honor implied social contracts is a good assumption.
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